Re: Fw: Dinosaurs and birds

[Michael Habib <mhabib5@jhmi.edu>]

> Here we go again . Are you now trying to cast me as arguing that hind 
> limbs are NOT limiting? Obviously they are, w/ out any question, in 
> any terrestrial animal, and I have never stated or implied otherwise. 
> Yet here I am, morphing into a moron who thinks that stride 
> "oscillation and length" increase into infinity....

I have no intention of casting you in any particular way at all.  I am 
merely trying to sort out exactly how you are working out the physics 
of the problem.  In any case, I wasn't sure what you felt that the hind 
limb limitations really were.  I specifically related the limitations 
to power; am I correct in assuming that you feel the same?  --MH

> You contend that velocity at the hind limb fail point minus velocity 
> at max running speed = zero, which strikes me as an overly dramatic 
> and non-sensical statement, on both on the dreaded "intuitive" and the 
> more esteemed non-intuitive levels. Safety factors are built into 
> every aspect of locomotion, for one thing.

That depends on what you mean by "fail point".  There certainly are 
safety factors built in, from a structural perspective.  On the other 
hand, there don't appear to be hard fail safe mechanisms to keep an 
animal from exerting its maximum power.  I am assuming that a running 
animal is using its maximum power at maximum running speed.  Do you 
know of any data to suggest otherwise? --MH

> There is a downhill grade such that a sprinter's maximum speed is 
> greater than on flat ground, for another. My guess would be about > 5%...

Well, that's easy enough to test.  I rather doubt it, but I'd be fine 
being proven wrong.  We can get a large sample of level sprints and 
downhill sprints and see if any consistent difference exists. --MH

> I say and have said that velocity at the hind limb fail point minus 
> velocity at max running speed is not zero, even in _large bipeds_ like 
> humans, and that "close" may convey advantage.  Sheesh. --Don

Again, easy enough to test, if you have a firm definition of "fail 
point".  I'd imagine the the fail point in this context is maximum 
available power (though "fail point" normally suggests structural 
failure).  --MH

> Who said anything about "cruising"? MAXIMUM SPEED is what my comments 
> apply to, have applied to, and will CONTINUE TO APPLY TO. What 
> terrestrial animal maintains maximum speed for more than a few > seconds?

Fair enough; do we see any cursorial birds flap at maximum running 
speed?  I cannot think of any examples.
--MH

> 1). When volants maximize output they FLY, Mike. They can't help it.

Not true.  They can flap without launching if desired.  If they 
maximize flapping output, with a lift-producing angle of attack, and a 
partially or fully minimized upstroke, then yes they would start to 
launch.  That doesn't mean that a volant bird cannot add thrust to 
running kinematics without launching.  If a volant bird is running at 
top speed, and then adds aerodynamic force then it will not 
automatically take off.  I do, of course, assert that the bird will 
tend to fall over (if it isn't launching), which is presumably why they 
don't try it.  --MH

> The non-birds that populate the ground-up scenario have a top gear, 
> but can't fly yet. 2). It's a completely different evolutionary path 
> and dynamic, especially from the perspective of the competitive 
> cohort, and beginning anatomy. This applies to your comment 3, below, 
> including the neo-flightless. --Don

Can you be specific about how the dynamic differs, and how the anatomy 
differs in such a way as to change the mechanics of the scenario?  In 
particular, I am wondering why the neo-flightless situation is so 
different.  Is there a particular reason that something like a wood 
rail cannot derive the running benefits that you suggest for an 
incipient flyer (and thus has weaker forelimbs)? --MH

> ===========================
> Oh-ho! so you finally tried it? About time...--Don       }:D
> ===========================

Yeah, I was "inspired", I suppose.  Had a spare moment with a friend.  
--MH

> Stresses equal... Interesting idea. In total, probably, is my 
> uneducated guess. Not so power mass, which controls speed, does it 
> not? Back stride: action/reaction. Front stride: rotation at hip...

By power mass, do you mean hind limb muscle mass?  --MH

> Hind limbs definitely limiting, at some point. I say-- velocity at the 
> hind limb fail point minus velocity at max running speed is not zero. 
> --Don

Again, we need to come to a consensus on what this "fail point" is.  To 
the best of my knowledge, it is maximum power output.  To put it 
another way, is there a reason that you think the hind limbs cannot 
exert maximum power at maximum speed?  Is there something that limits 
their ability to exert available power that is somehow lifted by having 
forelimb-imparted thrust?  --MH

> We also need to keep the footfall time in mind: if our near-bird
> increases its travel speed during aerial phase with the forelimbs, then
> it will be going beyond the velocity sustainable by the hind limbs when
> it makes footfall at the end of that aerial phase.
>
>  ==========================================
> You say "beyond velocity sustainable." ??? That is the _question_. 
> Again! Wow, man.
> ===========================================

Not from my perspective, though perhaps there is a misunderstanding.  I 
felt that the question was "can forelimb imparted aerodynamic thrust 
increase maximum speed, even if the hind limbs are already acting at 
maximum power?".  If the relationship between maximum power usage and 
maximum speed is in question, then we have a new nut to crack: Do 
running birds use maximum available hind limb power when at maximum 
running speed?  I have been assuming that they do, which I mentioned in 
my last couple of posts.  Have you seen any data to suggest otherwise? 
--MH

> It's not a law, but it is a result of laws (physical ones), and thus is
> going to be a pretty firm rule most of the time.  Reduced foot force
> against the ground can be advantageous, but not for running speed.  
> --MH
>
> ==============================================
> Depends on substrate.

How does that depend on the substrate?  --MH

Cheers,

--Mike H.