Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"

["Michael Schmidt" <dmschmidt@sprint.ca>]

Hi Cliff,

would you be able to provide me with any evidence of these dozens of stories
you talk about?  I would be very interested in seeing this evidence.  What
makes your "stories" any different than my innuendos??

And please, also provide some evidence as to the vast majority of the
dealers in Tuscon breaking the law....or having no thics.

if it contravenes any list rules, feel free to post it to me offlist.....

thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Green" <dinonaut@emerytelcom.net>
To: "dinosaur mailing list" <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"


> Dear List,
>
>     At this point, I am concluding that Micheal Schmidt is a former list
> member, but hopefully he sees this post.
>     You are claiming that Mary Kirkaldy is being clouded by emotion, in
her
> stance against commercial fossil collecting, but then you go into a multi
> paragraph tome with wild accusations and innuendos. The academia has done
> thier homework on the damage of commercial collecting.
>     I live right on top of one of the richest vertebrate fossil areas in
the
> world. I can tell you dozens of stories about self proclaimed
"Professional
> " commercial people stealing our dig sites blind.Even the ones digging up
> fossils legally will throw priceless fossils over the sides of thier sites
> in order to get to the claws, premaxillas and other trinkets.
>     It has been my experience, especially after attending The Tucson
Fossil
> Show, this past February, that the number of commercial people who care
more
> about the scientific value of the fossils that they sell, over the
almighty
> dollar, can be numbered on one hand, ... minus a few fingers.
>
> Cliff Green
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Schmidt" <dmschmidt@sprint.ca>
> To: <MKIRKALDY@aol.com>
> Cc: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"
>
>
> just the academics I sell fossil materials to on a fairly regular
> basis........legally, and without complaints from them, I may add.
>
> As both you and I say, you have your opinion, and I have mine.  It's just
> too bad you let emotion cloud your viewpoint into making you believe that
> all fossil dealers are unlawful.  Until such a law is passed, making it
> illegal to deal in fossil materials, your comments are nothing but biased
> and ignorant.  Your SVP ethics statement is NOT LAW, regardless of how
much
> you would like it to be.
>
> Strange how you guys always fall back on that statement, yet when any
sales
> fall within the criteria listed within the statement
>
> "The barter, sale, or purchase of scientifically significant vertebrate
> fossils is not condoned unless it brings them into, or keeps them within,
a
> public trust. Any other trade or commerce in scientifically significant
> vertebrate fossils is inconsistent with the foregoing, in that it deprives
> both the public and professionals of important specimens, which are part
of
> our natural heritage. "
>
> you still complain that people like me shouldn't be able to sell
specimens.
>
> Am I the scum of the earth for just selling the local university a very
> large and complete vertebrate specimen?  Some of you would think so, yet
> according to the statement above, I have done nothing wrong.  Correct?  I
> sold the specimen, which was professionally collected and partially
prepared
> (again, professionally), along with all the scientific data required.  I
> made a little money, and the university got a world class specimen for a
> small percentage of what it would have cost them to go collect the
specimen
> themselves.  Tell me what I have done that is unethical?  Nothing, as far
as
> I can see....especially considering I could have made MORE money selling
it
> privately.
>
> Let's see what your statement says.......
>
> "to discover, conserve, and protect vertebrate fossils and to foster the
> scientific, educational, and personal appreciation and understanding of
them
> by amateur, student and professional paleontologists, as well as the
general
> public."
>
> That's interesting.........notice how it says the general public, and
> amateur paleontologists?
>
> It is the responsibility of vertebrate paleontologists to assist
government
> agencies in the development of management policies and regulations
pertinent
> to the collection of vertebrate fossils, and to comply with those policies
> and regulations during and after collection. Necessary permits on all
lands
> administered by federal, state, and local governments, whether domestic or
> foreign, must be obtained from the appropriate agency(ies) before fossil
> vertebrates are collected. Collecting fossils on private lands must only
be
> done with the landowner's consent.
>
> I have more than 1 story that has been told to me by involved parties of
> academics tresspassing on private land, and of bullying landowners into
> believing they had no right to stop any academic from coming onto their
> property and collecting whatever they wanted in the name of science.  In
> some cases when reported to the authorities, the allegations were
dismissed
> as a "misunderstanding"....funny, when a commercial collector is caught
> accidentally collecting literally 10 feet inside BLM land, when it is an
> honest mistake of a law abiding collector with absolutely no problems with
> the law.....he is fined $10,000 by the Federal government.  As well, when
> specimens that are in collections in local museums and universities- part
of
> a public trust, correct??- are thrown out because there is little room to
> store a lot of it anymore, where is the enforcement or adherence to your
> statement then?
>
> While some museums are good about it, other museums do not let
non-academics
> view specimens in their collections.  Why is this?  According to the
> staement above, these specimens should be available to the interested
> public...if they are in public institutions paid for by tax dollars,
> correct?  yet, in many cases, they are not allowed this access.  I think
it
> is very interesting the way academics cling to this statement when it
serves
> their purposes, yet quite a few of them find it difficult to adhere to it.
> Much like everything else in life (laws, religion, agreements, whatever)
> they pick it apart and select what parts will serve them the best.  If
other
> aspects hinder them in some way, they just kind of ignore them....and
later
> on claim it was just a misunderstanding.  Not all academics do this...the
> majority are fair, honest people.  it is just a small few judging by what
I
> have seen...just like the majority of fossil dealers don't run around
> raiding dig sites and selling off complete allosaurs......Why is it an
> industry gets condemned by the actions of a precious few, but the
scientific
> community seems to be (in some cases) above the law?
>
>
>
> I do not disagree with the majority of what this statement says.  What I
> disagree with is:
>
> 1.  Why it singles out vertebrates specimens.  Yes, yes, I know...it's the
> SVP, but I think if you are going to have a charter, or law, etc., then
have
> one that protects ALL fossils.  You will NEVER be able to convince me that
> an isolated Albertosaurus tooth found while surface collecting is far more
> scientifically important and worthy of protection than a complete
> anomalocaris specimen.
>
> 2.  Some vertebrate specimens are available in HUGE quantities, and it
would
> certainly not harm science to have a good number of these specimens
> commercially available.  I read somewhere that the 3 most common fish
> present in the Green River Formation may be present there in numbers
> exceeding the billions.......Please tell me how a guy with a quarry in
Utah
> selling knightias and diplomystuses is taking anything away from
science????
> Again, see your statement......"scientifically significant vertebrate
> fossils".  You tell me how a single common Knightia oceana is any more
> significant than 100,000 others?  Who decides whether it is or not?  Some
> biased academic, such as yourself?
>
> I will be the first one to applaud any country's efforts to protect fossil
> resources and to rally for protection of important specimens.  I live in
> Canada, and unlike your country, I must get permission from the Canadian
> government to export any fossil material, via granting of a permit.
> Possession doesn't mean squat if you want to export it.  This gives the
> government an opportunity to acquire the specimen for national or
Provincial
> collections.  Citizens in your country can go out in their back yard, dig
up
> a T-rex, and sell it to the highest bidder........that seems a little
> twisted to me.  Unfortunately, you live in a society where private
property
> laws are paramount.  Try to confiscate something like that from the
> legitimate owners, and you'll become aware of another of your enshrined
> rights....the right to bear arms.
>
> I deal with a lot of academics who live in the 21st century, and who
believe
> that a balance can be struck between RESPONSIBLE commercial collecting,
and
> legitimate scientific research.  My professor here travels to Morocco
every
> year to purchase trilobite specimens from a commercial dealer.  They are
> collected and prepared there, and he either travels out there to pick them
> up and do the field work he needs to do, or the specimens are (rarely)
> delivered to him.  He is one of the top people in his field....but then
> again, trilobites that are known by only a handful of specimens are not
> worthy of the same protection and consideration afforded a broken
> Carcharadontosaurus tooth, are they?
>
> I could live my entire life LEGALLY collecting vertebrate fossils and
> selling everything last thing I ever collected to academic institutions,
and
> people like yourself would still twist your SVP statement into whatever
you
> needed it to say in order to have contempt for me.  I have seen a lot of
> examples of fossil material being sold privately that should have gone to
> museums, but I have also seen many examples of carelessness and
recklessness
> by so-called academics and professionals.  The difference is, the
academics
> seem to be above the law.......strange, isn't it?  Two sets of laws for 2
> different groups.......
>
> Be honest..........you LOATHE fossil dealers whether they conform to your
> statement or not.  Responsible or legal collecting will never be the issue
> with you.........only collecting for profit.
>
> It's nice to meet others in your field who do not share your beliefs.  I
> also truly hope that zero tolerance attitude disappears in the years to
> come.
>
> Good luck with your proposed Draconian laws.....maybe the money your
> government collects in fines once it's imposed can be used to re-open some
> of your museums that have recently closed down.......
>
> Michael
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MKIRKALDY@aol.com>
> To: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:58 AM
> Subject: Re: "2 avoid prison time in moon-rocks theft"
>
>
> > In a message dated 8/7/2003 10:09:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> dmschmidt@sprint.ca writes:
> >
> > < Yes.....that sure is a sensible, non judgemental comment if ever I
heard
> one.  Contrary to what you believe, not all dealers operate outside of the
> law.......but unfortunately there are far too many "professionals" and
> "academics" out there with your mindset who will just never believe that
> > commercial collecting can be done responsibly, and to the mutual benefit
> of both business and legitimate science. >
> >
> > Both your stance and mine on the question are well known and documented
in
> the DML archives.  As a member of SVP, I take the ethics statement very
> seriously: http://www.vertpaleo.org/policy/ethics.html
> > and have been active in supporting The Paleontological Resources
> Preservation Act (H.R. 2416).  Anything less would be a sell(out).
> >
> > See also SVP's statement at:
> > http://www.vertpaleo.org/policy/policy_statement_Preservation.html
> > and Richard Stucky's testimony in front of the US Senate Committee on
> Energy and Natural Resources at:
> > http://www.senate.gov/%7Eenergy/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=325&wit_id=760
> >
> > < I thank God everyday for the GROWING number of acdemics out there who
do
> not share your outdated beliefs..........>
> > Do you have statistics on this groundswell movement?
> >
> > Mary
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>