Re: The absurdity, the absurdity (was: Cooperating theropods?)

[sankarah@ou.edu]

Jonathon Woolf wrote:
> 
> Chris Campbell wrote:
> 
> > Jonathon Woolf wrote:
> >
> > > Um, well, no.  As Larry also observes, canids tend to be chase hunters, 
> > > while
> > > felids are almost exclusively ambush hunters.
> >
> > And what's involved in an ambush?  A short chase, pounce, and
> > strangulation bite.  All felids are adapted for cursoriality.  All have
> > powerful jaws.  All kill by suffocation/strangulation.  Same with
> > canids, same with hyenas.
> 
> No, _not_ the same.  Chris, you're arguing in generalities.  Just look at the 
> > animals, OK?  

Yes, I am arguing in generalities, because dromaeosaurs differ from
modern predators in even the most general means imaginable.  Compared to
a dromaeosaur, cats and dogs have an awful lot in common -- that was my
only point.

> > > African wild dogs (hunting dogs, painted wolves, _Lycaon pictus_ for the
> > > taxonomically inclined) are fearsomely effective predators, precisely
> > > because they are the only chase hunters in a world otherwise filled by 
> > > ambush
> > > hunters -- the big cats and the hyenas.
> >
> > Uh, no.  Hyenas are about as far from ambush hunters as you can get.
> > They chase, just like dogs.  None of this invalidates my point; the
> > particular methods differ dramatically, but the generalities
> > (cursoriality, strangulation/suffocation) are the same.  In particular,
> > the method of dispatch is very similar in all cases.
> 
> Cats are not chasers; cats are ambushers.  Hyenas I'm not sure, but I don't 
> recall
> anything about them doing much long-range chasing.

They do.  Or rather, the guides I have available (principally _Walker's
Mammals of the World_) say they do.  I haven't done too much observation
on them personally, so I can't say for sure.
 
> > > The tactics that work against a cat that can only run a hundred meters
> > > before dropping don't work against a predator that can dog the prey's
> > > heels for miles, until the prey animal finally tires and falls.
> >
> > Depends.  Horns work pretty well regardless.
> 
> Most large mammalian herbivores have no horns, or their horns are not usable 
> as
> weapons.

Bison?  Buffalo?  Elk?  Moose?  Wildebeest?  These are our large
mammalian predators, andthey allhave either horns or antlers (and all
use them in defense).
 
> > > And both wild dogs and wolves have another unusual habit: when faced with 
> > > large
> > > animals that take a lot of killing, they have a disturbing tendency to 
> > > settle 
> > > for crippling the prey by hamstringing it or something similar, then just 
> > > dig in
> > > without waiting for it to die.
> >
> > Right, true.  My point here is that Deinonychus would dispatch its prey
> > in a way compeletly different from any extant animals.  This means it
> > can take different prey, and perhaps larger prey, than we might expect
> > from a modern analog.
> 
> You can't be sure of that.  

That's why I said "perhaps" and "might".  

> True, dinosaurs don't have any close modern analog.  That
> means you can't be sure they _did_ hunt like cats or canids, 
> but it also means you can't be sure they _didn't_.

Which, again, is why I said "perhaps" and "might".  We don't know, and
that means theories of pack hunting and preferred prey should not be
dismissed out of turn because we can't find a modern analog.  We simply
have no idea.

Chris