Re: The absurdity, the absurdity (was: Cooperating theropods?)

[Jack <jconrad@lib.drury.edu>]

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Larry Dunn wrote:

> Stretches the imagination doesn't it?  Must take a lot of lions piling 
> on to achieve that.  (And, ahem, a lot of cooperation which requires a 
> lot of intelligence.)  
> So lions are getting desperate.  Probably brought on by depletion of 
> saner prey choices.  Wonder what (or who!) caused such an extreme change 
> in prey selection?  Do you think that elephants are the preferred prey 
> species of lions?  

Lions are getting desperate, but it was suggested in the pictoral I
mentioned (that does it, I must get the reference) that the lions took to
it so easily that perhaps elephants WERE a prey animal of choice in times
unknown (I will try to get that source and perhaps a direct quote for you
today or tomorrow).  
Possibly less than an ideal example of how intelligence and EQ's are not
necessarily linked is found in gray reef sharks which often work
themselves into a frenzy when attacking prey. 

> That's a tautology.  "If they hunted in big packs, they must have needed 
> a lot of food, so they hunted large animals, which they could only have 
> killed in big packs."  Oh!

Interesting point.  Why do lions hunt large game?  I have no doubt that a
single dromie would have taken smaller prey (just as a single lion will).  

> Exactly.  Amazingly, most carnivorous vertebrates operate alone and eat 
> things smaller than they are.  There's nothing "specialized" about that.  
> Why assume dromaeosaurs were any different?

We should not *assume* anything about any extinct organism.  We should,
however, weigh the evidence we are given with an open mind.  Evidence
exists that at least some theropods moved in groups.  Evidence exists that
extant theropods also move in groups, though they usually do not hunt
together.  This may or may not be due to the fact that extant predatory
theropods are no longer terrestrial.  Because we are certain that there
were at least three dromies at the site of at least one dead tenontosaur,
there is evidence that _Deinonychus_ either moved in groups or lived in
relatively close proximity with one another.  THEREFORE, if _Deinonychus_
were predators, it is not beyond reason to suggest that they were group
predators.  The best examples of group predation today among vertebrates
indicate that they will hunt relatively large prey animals.  

> >resorting to making comparisons with beetles predating elephants.
> 
> I don't understand.  But of course beetles predate elephants -- by 
> millions of years.   How does this bear?

Oh, I see your misunderstanding.  I meant predating in the sense of
"Killing for food."  This use of the word "predate", as listed by The
_Oxford English Dictionary_ 2nd ed., dates back at least to 1974.
It has been used in this way in articles in _New Scientist_ (1977),
_Harper Population Biology of Plants_ (1977), and _Trout & Salmon_ (1974).  

I am enjoying this debate.  I have followed your posts in this
forum before and respect you ideas and way of thinking.  Friendly
discussions such as this are constructive to the growth of ideas.  (so
long as we understand what each other's words mean :)

Jack 

"Oh won't you please take me home?"