Re: Confuciusornis bird

[Jeff Poling <jpoling@infinet.com>]

At 05:49 PM 1/20/96 -0800, Clodis Hunt wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I seen your home page and think it has a lot of good information.  I would
like for you to link 
>to my home page, and return, I will link to yours. This newspaper artical
below will give you a  
>better insight as to the relationship with Archaeopteryx and the so called
link to dinosaurs and 
>our modern day birds.    

   Perhaps you should give me the URL first?


>                                Scientists detect bird who ruled
>                                       prehistoric roost
>
>                                     Confuciusornis sanctus
>
> The recent discovery of this ancient bird now called Confuciusornis
sanctus found in a north 
>China farm field puts a lid on the trash for the scientists who, with
Elementary understandings 
>has tried to lead us to believe that such a beast as the Dinosaurs and the
modern day birds are 
>decedents of such a beast, as the Dinosaurs.

   Nice way to start, insulting paleontologists.  Things do not look good so
far.

>
>                                           Clodis Hunt
>
>
>                        The Kansas City Star, Thursday, October 19, 1995 
>
>
>    A University of Kansas scientist and three colleagues have identified
the worlds oldest 
>beaked bird, whose fossilized remains were found in a north China field.
Dubbed "Confuciusornis 
>sanctus," or the holy Confucius bird, it lived some 140 million years ago
during the Jurassic 
>Period, according to their findings published today in the British science
journal Nature.

   According to my charts 140 years ago would be more than 5 million years
into the Cretaceous period.  Things are not going well.

>"The history of bird evolution is being rewritten right now in China," KU
scientist Larry Dean 
>Martin said Wednesday. It's going to change the whole shooting match."

   Hyperbole.  Everything I've seen of Confuciusornis indicates it is
essentialy Archaeopteryx without teeth.  That hardly upsets the history of
bird evolution.

>For years, those who study dinosaurs have feuded with scientists such as
Martin, who study birds. 
>The issue: Are modern birds descendants of dinosaurs? The dinosaur group
believes they are; 
>Martin and others believe they're two different creatures.
>
>"Score one for us," Said Martin, who fielded phone calls Wednesday from the
New York Times, Time,
>international science journals and other reporters.
>
>Finding the Confuciusornis--smaller than a crow, but more bird like with
its beak and feathers 
>adds credibility to the bird scientists' side of the debate, he said.

   An animal whose only difference from existing birds of that time period
is the lack of teeth doesn't add any credibility to the ornithologist side
of the debate.  Beaks are an old adaptation within the dinosauria, including
the theropoda.

>"The evidence for birds being dinosaurs has become less and less clear. In
my opinion, the coffin 
>on that case is nailed now, and hermetically sealed."

   More hyperbole and a gross exaggeration.

>The debate had focused largely on the archaeopteryx, The oldest known bird,
discovered in 
>Germany. It was a beakless bruiser with sharp, alligatorlike teeth.
>
>Until now, archaeopteryx was thought to be the only bird to exist in the
Jurassic Period, which 
>was about 140 million to 195 million years ago. It is slightly older than
the Confucius bird, 
>Martin said.

   145 to 208 million years ago.

>The discovery establishes that birds were around before the dinosaurs from
which Martin's 
>opponents contend birds descended.

   Really?  How does it do that?  So far, the earliest birds appear in the
mid to late Jurassic, some 78 million years after the first dinosaur.
Anything outside of that is pure speculation, and requires an explanation.

>"One's parents should be older than their descendants," Martin 
>noted.

   Hyperbole.

>The discovery also adds credence to the theory that birds were divided into
two distinct groups 
>during the age of dinosaurs. One group lived on land in trees. The other
lived at water's edge.
>
>The first group, which was more dominant and included Confuciusornis and
archaeopteryx, became 
>extinct. From the latter group came modern birds. Last spring, a Chinese
farmer in Liaoning, 
>northeast of Beijing, discovered the Confucius bird fossil. A few weeks
later, Chinese 
>pa;eontologist Hou Lianhai and Zhou Zhonghe, now a graduate student at KU,
were in the area doing 
>research when they were given the fossils.
>
>In October, the Chinese scientists visted Martin in Lawrence, which led to
the description of the 
>bird and the journal article. The fourth author is Allen Feduccia, a
biology professor at the 
>University of North Carolina , Chapel Hill.
>
>For Martin, 52, this is his most stimulating discovery in 30 years of
science. "This is the most 
>exciting thing I've ever been close to," he added.
>
>KU is one of the world's centers for study of prehistoric birds, and
Martin's work may not be 
>over.
>
>During one interview, a western Kansas man called to tell Martin he found
some fossils, In that 
>area of Kansas, the Niobrara chalk is known to have remains of the second
type of birds, the ones 
>that lived near water.
>
>"If I could find a bird there as old as the archaeopteryx, that would be a
big one," Martin said.

***

>Congradulations to the staff and associates of KU for their work in proving
there are no links
>                              from the Dinosaurs to our modern day birds.
>
>                                           Clodis Hunt

   There are **no** links to modern day birds?  Assuming for argument that
what the ornithologists say is true, birds descended from the common
ancestor, or a close relative of the common ancestor, of crocs, dinosaurs
and pterosaurs.  That is a link, like it or not.

   Looks like I'm going to have to up the timetable on publishing my
argument with Dan Buckna....

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